Wednesday, December 12, 2007

The Arrogance Of Massholes


I received an email from friend and fellow Steelers blogging compatriot Cotter from One For The Other Thumb. He talked about Patriots fans, and their need to gloat. Adding to the gloating, the Patriots fans continually make excuses for Spygate and Rodney Harrison's HGH use.

What the f**k is wrong with these assholes? I don't understand. Their team got caught videotaping other team's signals on the sidelines. But what, we made this up? That's not cheating? God damn frustrating man. Have you seen this exchange? -http://www.blitzburghreport.com/did-you-hear-that-anthony-smith-guaranteed-a-steelers-victory/

It's like they were waiting for us to lose so they could talk shit.

I don't get it.

After the Patriots won, Patriots fans bragged all over several Steelers blogs, including this one. I have links to several of the blogs further down in this post so you can check 'em out for yourselves.

Here's my thoughts:

The frustrating thing about Patriots fans (I refuse to use the nickname for the team, it only empowers Patriots fans) is that their recent string of success has completely blinded them. After the Celtics boom, there was little to celebrate in Boston. The Red Sox sucked, the Patriots sucked, the Bruins sucked.

Now, the Patriots success coupled with multiple Red Sox titles has overloaded the Boston ego, and they feel untouchable. Back in college, I had a real good buddy (two of 'em, actually) from Boston. They were typical Sox and Patriots fans. Evan and Bart were their names. They came from upper-class families, played lacrosse, wore pastel Polo shirts, talked traditional Masshole talk...the whole deal. Even after a hard night of partying, RAs would come to my room to separate myself and Evan for getting into Patriots/Steelers arguments. I loved the dude like a brother, but we always stressed our team's importance.

Despite all the concrete evidence I could give, Ev's argument would come down to, "3 Super Bowls...Tom Brady...Belichick...the Sox." I don't know why the Sox were thrown in there, but their success helped justify the Patriots' greatness. Now, the Sox only had one recent World Series title at the time, but that was a bragging point.

I'd counter with, "5 Super Bowls...Noll...Cowher...the laundry list of HOFers...the name Rooney...etc." Every bragging point Evan had, I'd counter with something better on our side. Hell, we were even at St. Vincent College, the Steelers' training camp, next to a dorm called Rooney Hall.

However, since the Patriots had 3 Super Bowls in the past decade, their organization was far superior. It reminds me of when me and you verbally jousted with Browns fans several weeks back. They continually used data from 60+ years ago to justify that Cleveland was superior to the Steelers. Likewise, Patriots fans use much more recent data, blindly omitting the fact that their team was an NFL afterthought prior to the 21st Century.

Which brings me to the cheating, Rodney Harrison and the idiot anonymous commenters on sites like Curtain, Doubt About It and here at PSaMP. Its like New England got a collective hardon when Anthony Smith guaranteed a win. When the Patriots won, their ego overflowed. Instead of high-fiving other Patriots fans, they felt the need to brag all over Steelers blogs. Now, I don't know about you, but even though I spent the week prior to the (second) Browns game on a Browns site defending the Steelers (here and here), I didn't go back once to gloat after we won. Gloating would've been classless. Browns fans repeatedly called us classless, as did the Patriots fans. But the Patriots fans decided to gloat. I'm dumbfounded how that math worked out.

Now, Patriots fans feel the need to stroke their ego so much, that this win over the Steelers now wiped the slate clean for all the wrongdoings from earlier in the season. Since Anthony Smith opened his mouth...and New England won...the Patriots are absolved of Spygate, or Rodney Harrison's HGH use. I asked a Patriots fan, "Would you be so smug if the Jets were caught videotaping the Patriots...then won the game?" No answer. And when I created a list of athletes/teams forfeiting games due to cheating/rules violations, the list wasn't good enough. I cited Olympic athletes and Tour de France riders stripped of championships for doping, the Black Sox, Michigan's Fab 5 having to remove their Final 4 banner for rules violations and Oklahoma football forfeiting the entire 2005 season's wins because of rules violations by the athletes and their coaches. The response...only the Black Sox were a pro team...and they willingly gave up their championship. Now, I guess cheating is different in the pros than it is in college, or in the Olympics, or the Tour de France. Cheating in the pros only gets you a draft pick docked, evidence immediately destroyed and your coach fined. And the pros are supposed to be the role models.

The Patriots knowingly cheated with the videotaping. Rodney Harrison doped, something that would've gotten him banned for life in the Olympics or Tour. Sam, from DAI said it best:

'...from the NFL rulebook:

"No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." They also say all video for coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." How is that hard to interpret? I've never seen an entire fanbase so quick to defend something so indefensible.'

Now, he was talking about Spygate, but the last part covers Harrison, too. If the Steelers were caught cheating, or some player on the team was busted for a banned substance, I'd be the first person to chastise that team/player. New England fans would rather make excuses than explanations.

And its not just the fans. "Well done is better than well said." That Tom Brady quote was forced down our throats by the CBS crew calling the game, since Anthony Smith made that blatant guarantee. However, Tom Brady did not once come out and criticize Harrison for being fined $5k for taunting Brian Billick the week before. I guess a win erases wrongdoings...on several levels.

We've accepted the loss. There was no shifting blame. Anthony Smith made a mistake. The Patriots won. Now, Patriots fans have another rung on the ladder to run away from Spygate and Harrison's doping...at least in their minds. I don't know if they'll ever see the light.

All I know is that I'll be here to put them in their place.



Cotter said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Get Fresh Designs said...

The best part is, as of right now all AFC playoff teams (except for the jags) have played Patriots. It's hard enough defeating divisional opponents twice year, just wait until they face the elite of the AFC come January.

Anonymous said...

Came across your blog today. Associating all Patriots fans with some kids that post on forums is dumb. I certainly don't judge the intelligence of all Steeler fans based upon your inane comments on your blog. Harrison used HGH trying to recover from three serious injuries . Harrison broke a rule and should have been suspended. He was suspended just like every other NFL player who has been caught using HGH. You seem to think he should get a harsher penalty than anyone else. But, your self-righteous comments about drug use and how you would point this out regarding the Steelers are nonsense. The Pittsburgh Steelers are FAMOUS for having used steroids during their championship runs of the 1970's. Several Steelers have died prematurely because of that use. Even now, NFL steroid investigations focus on Doctors from the Pittsburgh area who were known to supply the Steelers in the past. The Patriots broke a rule about the "location of a video camera"- not a rule about filming the other team's signals. Signals are given in the open with everyone in the stadium having an opportunity to steal them. There is nothing wrong with stealing signals. It is done in every sport. And , yes everyone does it. That's why they disguise the damn signals. Is that so hard to understand?

Cotter said...

Wait, what? I don't get it...

Cheating: to practice fraud or trickery OR to violate rules dishonestly

By your own admission they broke a rule.

Plus, SEEING signals is one thing. STEALING signals is another. I can't vouch for what was/was not "stolen," but if in fact the Pats were taping the other teams signals only to use them later to gain a competitive edge over other teams, that is cheating.

PS - I mean this all in the most polite way possible. Not trying to be a dick. I'm just saying. Breaking rules = cheating. You broke a rule, do the math.

tecmo_bowl_bo_jackson said...

Anon - Agreed that I shouldn't group all Patriots fans together. However, I've seen this behavior in Patriots fans from all walks of life...students...friends...work associates...distant family members of friends.

Please tell me how you know the Steelers used steroids in the 70s? Just because jilted-lover Jim Haslett held a grudge against his former employer and made an outrageous claim against a team he never played for...that doesn't mean its legitimate fact. Hines Ward had no cartilege in his knees. And Aaron Smith was just lost for the season with torn biceps. I don't think either of these guys are using HGH to heal. Don't make excuses for a man using a banned substance. Its banned for a reason.

And you could've at least used a fake name rather than posting as anonymous. You're proliferating the type of ignorance I originally pointed out.

Oh...and here's the Haslett bs.


Rooney rejected Haslett's claims, noting the Steelers were known for smaller, quicker linemen who ran trap plays that required they be agile, not bulky.

After Rooney called him out, Haslett retracted his claim.


Only one former Steeler, a part time player named Steve Courson (who was a rarely used backup), admitted using steroids. Yet, even Courson said guys like Lambert and Ham refused to use them.

Get your facts straight before you bring that bullshit up here.

Anonymous said...

My friend, you are the BS artist-not a very good one at that. Below you will find just a few of the many Steeler steroid stories. They are abundant with ex-Steelers being tested and admitted steroid users. For what it is worth, I don't personally care. But you seem to think that the Steelers are above any reproach. So here: (Note: I don't know how your comment software will treat the spacing of these stories- so you may have to do some work reading them):

Courson says Super Steelers were on steriods

By Carl Prine
Thursday, April 28, 2005
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Walking tall out of a House of Representatives hearing on the scourge of steroids in professional sports, former Steelers offensive lineman Steve Courson on Wednesday reiterated claims dating back to the early 1990s that the Pittsburgh dynasty was fueled by drugs and that both coach Chuck Noll and founder Art Rooney tolerated the free use of "juice" to hike performance.
Noll, like other NFL coaches, was under great pressure to win, said Courson, but he stopped short of blaming Steelers management for decisions players made on their own "to become bigger, faster and stronger" by using substances that were legal at that time.

Rest of the story link http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_328813.html

March 24, 2005
SportsLine.com wire reports

PITTSBURGH -- New Orleans Saints coach Jim Haslett says he used steroids when he starred as a linebacker in the early 1980s, and claims the Pittsburgh Steelers' use of the drugs during Super Bowl championship seasons in the 1970s brought steroids into vogue around the NFL.

Link http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8322840

By the way, Haslett did apologize to the Steelers under pressure. But he did not retract the statement in any way despite what you claim.

The Pittsburgh Steelers quietly fire testosterone/HGH doc
The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette publishes a story about Steeler doc Dr. Richard Rydze, the physician inplicated in the Florida Internet pharmacy bust. The Steelers, plagued by past allegations of steroid abuse are obviously distancing themselves from someone implicated in buying anabolic substances.
The Steelers have removed Dr. Richard Rydze from their medical staff roster, an apparent reaction to the revelation in March that he had purchased $150,000 in testosterone and human growth hormone with his own credit card.

Link: http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/06/the_pittsburgh_.html

Notebook; Troubled Steeler Is Sitting Out While Waiting for League Ruling
Terry Long, the Steelers offensive lineman who told teammates that he had tested positive for steroids and then twice attempted suicide last month, remains in Pittsburgh, awaiting the outcome of an appeal he has filed with the National Football League on the results of his test. Long hired a lawyer, George Saunders of Chicago, on the advice of the Players Association, to file the appeal shortly after his failed suicide attempts. Saunders, who would say only that Long was his client, said he has...

You may have a blog- but it does not make you all-knowing. In fact, at least on this topic it seems to have had the opposite effect.***
On other matters. I made no excuse for Rodney Harrison. I said he should be suspended and he was. You wanted him banned or something.

Bill Belicheck is guilty of arrogance. He thought that because many teams have filmed signals over the years that he didn't care if the commissioner put out another warning- he was going to do it anyway from anywhere he wished. He should not have done that. But cheating? Hardly. Even the commissioner's statement, totally disregarded by you and the jealous types, says the Patriots got no "competitive advantage" from this practice. Arrogant, yes. Cheating, no. ***************** A few weeks ago, the Colts Peyton Manning completed a long sideline pass to Gonzalez against the Chiefs. The receiver clearly stepped out of bounds on the catch- making it not a catch. But, as quickly as they could, the Colts ran up to the line of scrimmage to try and get another play off before the other coach could throw the flag. The other coach did throw the flag- but it was too late. The Colts had run a play. Now, my friend, that is cheating- is it not? That's real cheating- knowing that your player didn't really make the catch- but making sure that the referees didn't know it or couldn't do anything about it. Not to single out the Colts- because all teams in the NFL do this. They take advantage of every little thing possible. And, that my naive friend, is what BB was doing- trying to take advantage of every little thing...just like everyone else.***Finally, I am not using my real name because I don't want to be associated with this blog. I am not using a fake name because I don't want to make the effort for the very few who read this thing. This is my last post...

Cotter said...

eh fuck it dude, let's go bowling...

Anonymous said...

great post by anon user. realy took you boys to school with his fact riddled rant. It sure changed my view of the patriots. I'm glad I saw it before you delete his post

Anonymous said...

Massholes deserve assholes. See sendahole.com.

Anonymous said...

See sendahole.com.

Cotter said...

Guess that depends on your point of view, 8,000th anonymous Pats commenter of the week. I don't see it that way.

We weren't originally talking about the Steelers of the 70's using steroids, were we? That was not part of the discussion until 7,999th anonymous Pats commenter of the week tried to pull the jedi mind trick and change the subject.

And as for his comparison to the Colts-Chiefs game, I agree with him. That is cheating. But so is using a video camera to record other teams signals. A rule is a rule. You break it, it's cheating. And if you don't think preserving signals on video for later use gives a team a competitive advantage, you're crazy.

And that's the last thing I have to say on the subject.

Sam said...

While I would never condone steroid use, the NFL's steroid policy didn't come into effect until 1987.

Even if they did take them, the Steelers never broke any rules. If there was a clearly stated policy, something akin to "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game", then I might see where you are coming from.

Does that still make it a good thing that they might have taken steroids back then? No, but it still wasn't cheating. If there was no rule against video taping I would still find Belichick cheap and a bad sportsman, but there would definitely not be the same outcry. I would even guess many fans would be wondering why their coaches weren't doing the same thing.

But it is in the rulebook. They cheated. Tarnished championships. Get over it.

Pat said...

Sam wins. As always.

Anonymous said...

"But it is in the rulebook. They cheated. Tarnished championships. Get over it."

It is not against the rules to film a team's signals. It is against the rules to film it where the Patriots did.

But even then...

It is against the NFL rulebook to wear your shirt outside of your pants. If you did- would that be cheating? Just because you broke a rule- doesn't mean you cheated. Sam loses.

Sam said...

Anonymous jagoff,

If not wearing your shirt in your pants gained you a competitive advantage, then yes, it would be cheating. Although the style points may make up for it.

From Boston.com --

In a memo to NFL head coaches and general managers on Sept. 6, 2006, NFL executive vice president of football operations Ray Anderson wrote: "Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

In the league's Constitution & Bylaws, it reads: "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."


Note the memo was sent on SEPTEMBER 6TH. The first NE-NYJ game was the 9th! It is against the league rules to tape a team's signals. As long Pats fans keep fighting this it will stay at the forefront of the Patriots reputation and legacy, which every other fan of the NFL is perfectly happy with.

Pat said...

Um...like I said the first time, Sam wins. Stop trying. It's not a Steelers vs. Patriots thing. It's just an anyone vs. Sam thing. I lose to him all the time. You learn to live with it.

Sam said...

Just noticed the memo was sent a year before the game, but it still doesn't change the fact it was sent.

The important thing is that it says any location accessible to staff members. Are the stands accessible? Yes, they can get seats I'm sure. Is my living room accessible? Yes, if I allow them entry.

Anonymous said...

"Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Only problem with this is that the tapes were not used during the game.

Second of all, wearing your shirt outside of your pants is an advantage;-) Holding or clipping etc. and not getting called for it is an advantage etc. Running a play before the other coach can throw a flag is an advantage...You can go on and on with this "advantage" issue.

Reasonable fans do not say that what BB did was right. He broke a rule about the location of a video camera. But, at most, this should have been a $50,000 dollar fine. Last year several members of the Miami Dolphins admitted to viewing video tapes that had "audio enhancements" of Tom Brady's calls at the line in order to "gain the advantage" of knowing his audibles. This apparently worked as they frustrated Brady into a loss. I have no problem at all with this practice. If a team steals signals you were dumb enough not to change- you pay the price. But, this infraction, using technology for an advantage, was totally ignored, and even accepted, by everyone. But if the Patriots were to do something like this, jealous fans from all across the nation would have their panties all tied-up in knots. BTW, Sam, when people start to lose arguments they call other people names.

tecmo_bowl_bo_jackson said...

during the playing of a game.

It doesn't say during the playing of said game. It means any game.

The tapes were used to gain a competitive advantage in future games.

How is that not cheating?

And please change the subject to stepping out of bounds or not tucking shirts in again. Really. It hasn't been done enough.

Sam said...

If you gave me a real name to call you, I'd call you it. Hiding behind "anonymous" results in me having to make one up for you.

Bringing up other examples doesn't change what the Patriots did. In your holding,clipping example, if I knew a very successful player had been getting away with clipping and holding his entire career through some special technique, I would view him as a lesser player. There is no rule stating you can't run up to the line to stop a challenge. Unsportsmanlike? Maybe, but not cheating.

The Dolphins should have been punished for that, I completely agree with you. I willingly say their win over the Patriots was tarnished by their audio enhancements. Unfortunately, hypocrisy does not make the Patriots any less guilty, or their Super Bowls any less blemished.

Cotter said...

Anonymous - I'm breaking my own word here saying I was done with the subject.

However, I don't think this is a jealousy thing at all.

I can only speak for myself, but I was not aware of any taping by the Dolphins last year. Nonetheless, now that I am - that is cheating as well. Any violation of a rule is cheating. Using it to gain a competitive advantage is cheating, and they DO gain a competitive advantage, as you just proved by way of your Dolphins example.

Further, the language of the rule states "electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game." A game, not THE game. If the recordings taken during A game are able to be used to aid a team during ANY other game, that falls within the confines of the rule. At least from my perspective.

Sam said...

One last thing before I have to get some real work done-

The more I thought about it, the holding example was the perfect example of what should happen when you cheat.

First, you lose ten yards, which affects your chances at future success. Like losing a Number 1 draft pick. All good so far.

Then, you also forfeit the play. So you lose all gains that may have resulted from the fact you performed the illegal act. Kind of like forfeiting games in which you cheated the whole time.

The Patriots got off easy, as did the Dolphins.

Anonymous said...

"Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Sorry Sam- That clearly means during THE game in which these devices are being used. If this rule meant "any" game in the future... all technology would be banned. For instance, coaches and players would not be allowed to watch television replays of games...or not allowed to watch any tapes of games of opponents they were going to play...which is a standard life's blood practice of the NFL- teams even exchange videos. Why do they exchange them? So that teams can search for any advantage from them. And, of course, don't forget, all teams are free to view videos of the opposing teams' signals before or after games as long as the video wasn't shot from a prohibited location.

Sam said...

At least get the person right - that was Cotter's argument. Nice job ignoring everything that I said though.

It clearly states that any area "accessible to a club staff member" is off limits to videotape from. So if the club staff member is in a place videotaping the signals the place they are standing is accessible to them. And yes they exchange film. I also doubt the opposing team records their own signals.

Why did Belichick have the guy standing on the sidelines to record the signals if there was a legal place he could stand?

Cotter said...

Incorrect. The latter part of the rule is clear - "...including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

It does not say that might aid a team during the playing of THAT game in which it is shot. If it can be used to prepare for and play in A game, any game, then that falls within the language of the rule.

It prohibits the use of all those devices during THE game that could be used to aid a team during A game, not that specific game.

Anonymous said...

I am not a Steelers or Patriots fan, but someone linked me to this article and said read the comments, and I just couldn't resist -

Is this anonymous guy really arguing that the rule is only meant to prevent the use of the illegally taped video during the same game in which the video was taken, and that taping is otherwise okay so long as it is used, say, in the second meeting between the teams? Because that would be such a ridiculous interpretation of the rule that I would have to presume he had a serious learning disability.

tecmo_bowl_bo_jackson said...

Sam - Killer holding-penalty reference. That sums it up perfectly.

Anon Patriots fan - I have no idea how you clearly know the meaning of the rule that encompasses all games. And teams exchange videos that aren't illegally obtained. All videotapers have specific places where they can stand, and must wear specific colors. The Patriots spy was in street clothes (compared to the legal videographers).

Anon 2 - interpretation is indeed ridiculous.

tecmo_bowl_bo_jackson said...

Here's a pic showing the spy, in case you needed to see that he wasnt wearing league-approved videographer garb and wasnt in a league-approved place.

Click the hell outta it

Anonymous said...

You guys are all making my point. It is the method used and not the act itself which is a violation of the rules. i.e. no marked uniform, wrong location etc. (BTW, that rule is clearly meant for that game.)Is it cheating to film the other teams' signals? Is it even against the rules? The answer is "No." It is perfectly within the rules to use any video of any game of any act as long as it wasn't filmed from the location the Patriots did. It is as simple as that. That is what you guys don't seem to have the intellect to understand. As I have stated earlier, it is possible to break rules without cheating. I wish BB didn't break the rule. He should not have. That said- You get a fine for doing something wrong and that is it. This was worth $50,000 max. (And that is only because of the commissioner's reminder of the rule.)The Patriots' haters have blown this act, as arrogant as it was, all out of proportion. This is either out of jealousy or the hatred from some members of the press because BB won't answer lots of their stupid questions. There is a reason that 98% of the players and coaches see no issue. It is standard operating procedure in football- from high school on up...to try and get every single little advantage. This may not be the right thing...but that is the way it is. If fans want the culture changed...they should complain about helmets with radios, tailored field conditions, opening up stadium doors to have the wind help or hurt kickers etc. These have all become part of NFL gamesmanship whether you like it or not.

Anonymous said...

Stealing Signals article from a couple of years back excerpt: NYT

"There have been numerous tales of espionage in the National Football League, but the latest attempts by teams to steal another's plays may be the most ingenious, yet strange, of them all: it involves reading lips.

Lip reading is a tactic some coaches and scouts are increasingly employing to capture another team's signals, and in turn, anticipate what play is coming, some N.F.L. coaches said. To prevent lip reading, more coaches and assistants -- when sending in plays to the quarterback or the defense using the radio system that pipes plays into the players' helmet -- are shielding their mouths when giving the call.

''Stealing signals is an old art form in the N.F.L.,'' Lovie Smith, the St. Louis Rams' defensive coordinator, said recently. ''But this newest thing is pretty unusual and more teams are trying it.''

Giants Coach Jim Fassel said: ''There have been rumors that has been happening. But if someone can pull it off, more power to them, because it seems extremely hard to do.''

Here we have respected NFL coaches supporting the act of stealing signs. It is a totally accepted act in pro football...

tecmo_bowl_bo_jackson said...

Can we get a reference to that 98% stat?

Not being a dick...just want to know if its fact or your own assumption.

And lip reading is completely different. Its one thing to look at a guy's mouth. Its another to tape his mouth, then having the ability to mechanically zoom in, pause, slow down, piece together. Its just like with the Dolphins/microphone thing. If you hear a guy call a play...no harm no foul. If you're taping his voice to mechanically slow down/listen again, its another monster.

Anonymous said...

At last a well thought-out response :-)...But, notice, again, you are talking about the "method" used. Which is my entire point. No one argues that the Patriots didn't break a rule. I am 100% against the rule-breaking. It was wrong. But, the results of his rule-breaking was an effort to steal signals for whatever purpose. This is a totally accepted part of the game. If you want to make stealing signals by any method an illegal act- than the NFL should do so. But, they won't because it is part of the game...

To answer you: 98% is my own conclusion from watching/reading coaches/players either asked or coaches that are now commentators remarks...Ditka, Parcells, Johnson etc.... There have been just a handful of actual players who have complained and not surprisingly... they have been members of the Eagles or Steelers...

Cotter said...

Accepted practice or not - as Tec said, lip reading is one thing, video taping is another. Our point, or at least mine, is that this gives them an undue advantage, which in my mind is cheating.

We are talking about the implications of what and how much is gained, not the method used. Our discussion of the method used is just a vehicle to illustrate our point, which is - video taping signals gives them an advantage other teams don't have. Other teams have the ability to read lips. They are not, however, taping other teams signals from unapproved locations. What is gained from that goes far beyond lip reading.

And by the way, I think saying that we don't have the "intellect" to understand your argument is pushing it too far. There's no need to insult one's intelligence just because he or she doesn't see things your way.

Anonymous said...

"They are not, however, taping other teams signals from unapproved locations. What is gained from that goes far beyond lip reading."

You may be right about the location right now because of what happened to the Patriots.... But certainly, teams tape signals from other locations in the stadium...It is a common practice. In a story about the Jets videoing in Gillette last year it was brought out that teams tape for "coaching purposes" to be used in later games. Again, a perfectly acceptable practice according to NFL teams and the NFL. The difference? The video taping is taking place from elsewhere and not on the field. That is the ONLY difference. The end product, with Zoom lenses etc., is exactly the same. What do you think "Coaching Purposes" are? Every single method, whether successful or not, is an attempt to gain a competitive advantage. It doesn't matter that lipreading is less successful than video tape- (if it is)...It is the same thing. BB pushed it too far and broke a rule. But, anyone looking at this logically clearly sees it is all about Method. Regarding my comment about the lack of intellect on this thread. I take it back...but it is borne of frustration that people won't admit that stealing signals is a part of football and all sports for that matter. Always has been- always will be. IT IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES. You want to make it illegal using any method- go ahead. Ironically most coaches have admitted it has little affect in the end. So, BB tried to get a view of defensive signals- closer than every other team has. It was unnecessary and he should have been punished- though much less harshly than he was. Blown out of all proportion.

south-fl-steel said...

i don't know why no one brings up the point that if belicheck thought he was smart enough to get away with ILLEGALLY video taping an opponent, then after receiving a letter from the league office to stop doing it, he did it again, why then would he stop now? he may not be dumb enough to video tape again, but you can rest assure that the mindset it takes to flagrantly cheat in the face of your league did not vacate this man. if he has not discovered a new way to gain the upperhand on the rest of the league, he's certainly still looking. a wise man once said, once a cheater, always a cheater.

Cotter said...

Ok, now we're getting nit picky.

1. From my perspective, teams taping for coaching purposes would NOT include filming opponents signals. If it is for coaching purposes, I would assume it would be so that the team's coaches and players can watch the film later that week and see what they were doing wrong. Which IS a common practice.

2. Lipreading and video taping are not the same thing in terms of stealing signs. And there are levels of advantage afforded by different practices. The profitability of recording is much more significant (IE you can gain much more of an advantage from it).

3. I don't believe I said stealing signals was not part of the game. I agree that teams will continue to try and do it. However the NFL has enacted rules to deter them from using means that give them an UNDUE advantage. Everyone has an opportunity to lip read. Not everyone has the advantage of video taping, because the rules bar it and some teams do follow the rules.

In any event, you know what my point was. You obviously do not agree. Fine. This conversation is going nowhere.